Cardiovascular Risk Assessment and Management in Prostate Cancer Survivorship - Ravi Parikh
Ravi B. Parikh: I'm Ravi Parikh. I am a GU Medical Oncologist at the Atlanta VA and at Emory University. And so I guess maybe just to start, how many of you have had a patient where you're treating them,...
Ravi B. Parikh: I'm Ravi Parikh. I am a GU Medical Oncologist at the Atlanta VA and at Emory University.
And so I guess maybe just to start, how many of you have had a patient where you're treating them, you're their primary urologist, radiation oncologist, oncologist for their prostate cancer, and they don't see their primary care doctor nearly as much as they see you? That's pretty much all of my patients.
It's a question of whether they even see their primary care doc at all. And so usually, I think that the point of this talk is that very frequently we, as their definitive treatment manager, or as their systemic therapy giver, we are oftentimes their primary care doc. And so we shouldn't lose sight of the type of things that will cause them to run into problems when and if they get long-term disease control.
So I'm going to touch on five or four major topic areas that have to do with survivorship care, consequences of the treatment that we may give patients or emerging concerns that oftentimes get ignored. I realize that there are far more domains of survivorship care than cardiovascular health, vasomotor symptoms, bone health, and sexual health.
These are the ones where I think there have been some interesting updates in current practice so I wanted to touch on these. These are also areas where I oftentimes have something to say to my fellows rather than other elements of their survivorship care plan, like check their PSA every three months, or get screened for colorectal cancer.
Those guidelines really haven't changed much. So I'll focus on these four, but if there's any other elements of survivorship care you want to talk about during the discussion, we can talk about those as well. So I'm a medical oncologist, so I'm a little biased towards talking about consequences of the type of therapy that I give, ADT, but I'm going to play a urologist during the sexual health part and talk about things that I have no business giving patients.
And so we can have a more in-depth discussion than if you've had good experiences. Okay. So cardiovascular health, this is one of the...
For most of our patients, the leading cause of mortality, regardless of whether they are localized, early stage metastatic, it's in the castration-resistant period where they have a high likelihood of dying from direct prostate cancer-related adverse effects. But even nowadays in the hormone-sensitive setting, if you look at the average leading causes of death for metastatic castration-sensitive prostate cancer in the modern era, you'll see that cardiovascular disease is right up there with prostate cancer, which just tells us how well we've been doing with treating their metastatic disease and how potentially toxic their therapies can be.
So I wanted to give a little bit of an overview of how androgen suppression injures our cardiovascular system because I think it gives insight into what we should be doing to control it. So this comes from a review that was written by Vivek Narayan and Alicia Morgans. And so we know that hypogonadism that we induce leads to loss of testosterone and estradiol, and it's really that estradiol loss that leads to a lot of the adverse cardiovascular effects that we see.
You can see samples of what we, I won't go through the mechanisms of how our different agents tend to cause cardiovascular dysfunction, but you can read those on the pathway figure on the right. But central adiposity, sarcopenia, dyslipidemia, glucose intolerance, these are all mechanisms of how we induce cardiovascular injury.
And the point is that it used to be thought that a lot of the side effects of ADT were atherogenic in nature, but the adverse effects that you see from ADT happen a lot faster than it takes to develop a coronary artery plaque or a vascular plaque. And so most of this we think now is happening as a result of hormonal-related changes outside of plaque formation, things that have to do with the FSH surge at the initiation of a therapy like Lupron or abrupt transitions between hormonal states, especially when we do things like intermittent hormonal therapy, which there are some case reports that have higher cardiovascular-related side effects than giving continuous ADT, so you can read about some of that.
I don't know the exact mechanism by which that happened, but it's thought that some of the hormonal imbalances that we induce through an intermittent approach may lead to some adverse cardiovascular injury as well. And so you've read a lot recently about how there have just been increasing attention to cardiovascular screening for our patients so that we can recognize injury when and if it happens.
But unfortunately, we don't screen our veterans in particular for cardiovascular risk factors enough. So this comes from a study that was led by Lova Sun, who's now a thoracic medical oncologist at Penn, but has done a lot of VA-related research. And so she took a national cohort of veterans and actually coded using administrative data a series of ACC- and AHA-recommended cardiovascular screening measures.
It took a lot of work because EHR data is very messy, but she came up with probably the most up-to-date data on how well we do with cardiovascular screening. And this is across med oncs, urologists, rad oncs. Only about 68% of patients who were diagnosed with prostate cancer received comprehensive cardiovascular risk assessment.
Of those, 54% had uncontrolled risk factors and of those 54%, 30% were not receiving risk reducing medication at the time. You can see that from the graph here, what was really interesting, what she found was that rates of cardiovascular screening had much more to do with whether they had baseline cardiovascular disease, but essentially nothing to do with whether they started ADT or not.
And so what that told us was that maybe the fact that they may have been in primary care was a strong determinant of whether they got screened because oftentimes your ASCVD risk factors are triggering primary care docs to screen for cardiovascular risk factors. But the baseline cardiovascular risk assessments that are recommended by our NCCN and ACS survivorship guidelines were just not necessarily doing enough when we start ADT.
And so I think studies like this have really prompted me to think about survivorship care and cardiovascular risk screening as a bit of a bundle, like a go/no-go when I start ADT on patients because it would be terrible if these patients went through and they're not seeing their primary care doc for them to not be monitored for this kind of stuff.
I mean, so there are structured approaches for cardiovascular risk assessment and mitigation. This comes from an ACC, AHA guideline-based statement that came out in 2016, and it's sort of a simple mnemonic for us to remember. A, awareness and aspirin, doing a formal ASCVD risk assessment, so plugging in the variables in that calculator that you see online and discussing cardiovascular risk explicitly at the ADT consent conversation.
I even recently started a statin on a patient a couple of months ago when I was seeing them and it was a big moment for me, I hadn't done that since my internal medicine residency. But the point is that we oftentimes ought to be doing this for our patients because they're not getting seen by their primary care docs or cardiologists.
Blood pressure management, measuring at every oncology visits. I can't tell you, the default state for my vets when they come in is a state of hypertension during their visits, and so it's just a question of how much. But the decision can't be, okay, BP 180, we got to refer them to the ED or we do nothing.
There are ways for us to manage their blood pressure, increase their baseline antihypertensives, and then ensure that they have close management with their PCP who they may or may not be seeing. Cholesterol and cigarettes, so at least measuring lipids at baseline. Diet and diabetes, we'll talk a little bit about diet later.
And then exercise we'll talk about later as well. These guidelines actually recommended a formal cardiology, or if you have one, a cardio-oncologist referral if they have greater than two uncontrolled risk factors out of these that you see here. And so that probably constitutes a large proportion of what we see, and so we should be a little bit more forward about either managing or referring.
There are guidelines about what we should do and how often. I'll share these slides but won't necessarily go through them. I think one of the points that we should mention here is that there is added cardiovascular risk largely through additional hypertension risk from our ARPIs that we're increasingly giving to our metastatic and our localized patients.
And this is treatable, but often ignored. And this is common across all of our ARPIs, even though abi might have an increased risk, this is pretty much a uniform risk factor that we ought to be aware of. ADT can cause insulin resistance within months.
New onset diabetes does happen. And then sarcopenic obesity is the earliest, most visible change as we know for our patients. Not every patient needs a stress test, so that's not necessarily what we should be referring our patients for, it's more so measurement of these risk factors.
Okay, so now let me get to things beyond just risk factor assessment. So one of the foremost areas that in cardiovascular risk prevention, one of the formal studies that came out was the HERO trial that showed that there was a reduction in major adverse cardiovascular events with the use of relugolix as opposed to GnRH agonists like Lupron for someone's primary hormonal therapy.
And so for those of you who haven't used relugolix, it's an oral non-peptide GnRH receptor antagonist, not an agonist like Lupron is. There's no initial receptor antagonism, so we don't need to give the Casodex lead-in when we use this drug. It's rapidly reversible, and it has some SIPS inducer exposure or interaction as well.
The points about relugolix that I want to come across, because increasingly I find that I use it a lot in my Emory clinic and not as much in my VA clinic and I sometimes wonder why. It has to do sometimes with our formularies, but there is a reason why we often not ought to be defaulting to relugolix for everyone.
So for one, the sustained castration rate is a less than 10% difference, but it is higher with relugolix and there is a quicker on and off for testosterone suppression with relugolix that was seen in the study. But the major point that got a lot of attention was the fact that the cumulative incidence of MACE was about three absolute percentage points, but the hazard ratio was over 50% lower when you use this drug.
So on one hand, this is a real effect. On the other hand, the smaller absolute effect, it can be justified that you should be careful about using this much more expensive drug, and one that depends on oral adherence to achieve sustained castration. And so I'll usually reserve this if someone has a prior history of MACE.
I won't usually defer to that if they have just a baseline risk factor like hypertension or hyperlipidemia. If they've had prior coronary artery disease, or a prior heart attack or stroke, that's usually when I'll make the push to the VA formulary folks to really push for this. But I realize practice is different, and it is a lot easier to get this approved sometimes in the commercial insurance setting.
Some of my colleagues at Emory, Sagar Patel and Anant Mandawat, two PCF-funded investigators, did this really interesting randomized trial where they tried to uncover the mechanism by which relugolix may lead to lower cardiovascular risk factors. And it did look like plaque volume buildup was one of the major mechanisms of this effect.
And so this is interesting because we know that Lupron-induced cardiovascular effects isn't necessarily plaque buildup, but it does look like the reason why relugolix has some improved MACE benefit does have to do with long-term plaque buildup, and they used some really interesting techniques in this randomized trial to elucidate that.
So this is a summary of recommendations around cardiovascular care. I think it largely has to do with risk factor assessment, recognition of uncontrolled risk factors to refer to a cardiologist if need be, and then use of relugolix if someone has a history of prior MACE or significant uncontrolled cardiovascular risk factors.
There are some controversies in cardiovascular management that I'll want to just call across. One is that many of the risk calculators that are prompted to be used are primarily trained in non-prostate cancer populations, and so we don't, sometimes the exact thresholds that are used for triggering say statin use are not necessarily tailored for our population.
I already mentioned the fact that I'm not completely convinced that we ought to be using GnRH antagonist for everybody. There have been trials with prior GnRH antagonists like degarelix that were negative, like the PRONOUNCE trial, and so this isn't necessarily a uniform benefit, although I do think there's a mechanistic possibility here.
There've been a lot of trials in particular from the STAMPEDE group around metformin use, but many of these have not necessarily shown super meaningful effects on metabolic syndrome, and so I don't routinely offer metformin for my patients. And then there's cardio-oncology referrals, which may or may not be available at your centers.
So now, let's talk to vasomotor symptoms, which is the main reason why my patients hate me when I start ADT. I under-screen for the significance of vasomotor symptoms. I'll just tell you up front, and I think we routinely do this for patients on ADT.
It's not just a question of whether they are or whether they aren't having hot flashes. It's also a question of are they daily? Are they multiple times per day?
Are they resulting in functional deficits? And then when during the day are they happening? And I think that all can play into your management strategy as I'll tell you about in a little bit.
This is a summary of what our current guidelines offer for vasomotor symptom management. Venlafaxine probably has the best established prospective data for use in men. Gabapentin, because it's additionally sedative, is sometimes preferred for when men have significant nighttime hot flashes.
And then I'll tell you a little bit about a randomized trial that was published this past year on use of oxybutynin for control of hot flashes that's led to it to be my preferred agent for managing hot flashes in several men. We'll talk a little bit about Veozah or fezolinetant, but I've never treated a patient with it yet for hot flashes.
Some of you may have, I have not. I think we tend to under refer for behavioral- and lifestyle-based therapies, which compared to some of our medication-based therapies, acupuncture has some of the best prospective data for hot flash management. And unlike in commercial settings, many of us can actually refer veterans for acupuncture a little bit easier.
I know at the Atlanta VA, there is dedicated acupuncture centers that we can refer to. So something that I'd encourage some of you to think about. And then there are hormonal-based therapies like low-dose estradiol because it should be remembered that hot flash symptoms are a result of estrogen withdrawal, not testosterone withdrawal that have shown effect, particularly for the low-dose estradiol, although I'll usually refer to endocrinology and not administer that myself.
A practical sequence for thinking about hot flash management is to start with venlafaxine or gabapentin if a patient has a co-indication for them like mood, neuropathy, or insomnia. If they don't have a contraindication, then oftentimes I'll start with oxybutynin because it's cheap, generic, and now has randomized evidence.
Although as I'll mention, there are anticholinergic side effects that we need to worry about with oxybutynin. And then there's a pathway now that's present in some guidelines to escalate to NK3 antagonists like Veozah for refractory symptoms. And I'll show you a recent New England Journal article about that.
So let's talk a little bit about oxybutynin, which is my new preferred agent for hot flash management. I usually start with 2.5 milligrams BID, although in someone who you're really concerned about confusion or dry mouth or who may have anticholinergic interactions with some of their meds, sometimes you can start with two and a half milligrams at night.
In this randomized trial published in NEJM, they ran a three-arm study, oxybutynin five versus oxybutynin 2.5 versus placebo. And at each increased excessive dose, there was a significant reductions in the percentage of baseline hot flash scores. You can see on the graph on the right, it averaged out to about two to three less total absolute hot flashes per day, which for our patients is pretty meaningful.
As mentioned, it is a potent anticholinergic and the general population has been linked to falls and cognitive impairment so we don't want to take this drug lightly, although it could be argued that some of those side effects are similarly present for some of the SNRIs that are currently recommended as well so we have to just weigh out our potential side effect burden.
Usually the thing that prevents me from using it is med-med interactions. So I always try to talk to my pharmacist before prescribing this. Some of you may have come across this New England Journal of Medicine case report around Veozah or fezolinetant, which is a 45-milligram once-daily medication that is approved for women with vasomotor symptoms, but does not have a current prostate cancer approval, although there are some patients I've heard about getting it off label.
This is a remarkable case that they described about a patient who is refractory to many different types of medication management who got started on Veozah and had a profound reduction in their proportion of severe hot flashes that they had. And so something interesting to think about, it is quite hepatotoxic, and so you have to watch out for that.
And so I'll oftentimes, if I was going to use this drug, I would do it under close surveillance with an endocrinologist. Many of you may have seen the PATCH trial that came out earlier this year in New England Journal. This was a randomized trial that randomized individuals to getting their primary hormonal treatment with either transdermal estradiol, so four patches switched twice-weekly, versus Lupron.
This was non-inferior for metastasis-free survival. And essentially, the side effect profile was trading off hot flashes for gynecomastia. So that has to do a little bit with the mechanism of action.
As I mentioned, hot flashes are a symptom of estrogen withdrawal, and so if you're providing direct estrogen through this patch, then you're often able to mitigate hot flashes. That's also the reason why Casodex is associated with less hot flashes than Lupron, but that direct estrogen can cause gynecomastia.
And so the rates of gynecomastia here, 85%, were larger than is typically seen even with Casodex. So this isn't approved yet in the US. I believe it's available in Europe.
It may be coming and something to think about if it does come out. I'll skip over this a little bit. I'll just touch on this question about is the best drug to address vasomotor symptoms actually ADT choice.
So there's a lot of patients with refractory hot flashes that are difficult to control with medical management that are just on single-agent Casodex in my clinic. And either that's a relic from a prior treatment or something that I've done just because otherwise they would not be on any ADT at all because of the hot flashes.
And so as to whether that's a great strategy or not, I'm not sure, but hopefully with some of these additional hormonal therapy agents, we may have some better options. Okay, so vasomotor symptoms, what to take back to your clinic, ask about them. Oxybutynin is an agent that I would recommend trying.
Respect its anticholinergic burden though. When there's a co-indication for giving venlafaxine or gabapentin, consider those, and then for refractory hot flash symptoms, think about referral to endocrinology. Okay, let's talk a little bit about bone health, which I would argue is the largest gap in prostate cancer survivorship.
About 41% of our men have either osteoporosis or osteopenia prior to ADT start. And it's been shown that ADT leads to at least 3% loss in bone density, or sorry, on average 3% loss in bone density within the first year, and around 20% over five years for those men who are on long-term ADT.
And yet and still, in Medicare populations, and this is not too different at the VA, we only screen for bone density screening for about 8% of men who start ADT, which is just abysmal. Now, the takeaways are that we should be getting DEXAs and calculating FRAX scores for those men who are osteopenic before ADT starts in any man with a risk factor, which is basically anyone who starts ADT.
The guidelines are to treat with an anti-resorptive if either they have osteoporosis or osteopenia with a FRAX score that's greater than 3% for hip or greater than 20% for major osteoporotic fracture. Or if they have a prior fragility fracture, if they have evidence of a vertebral compression fracture, that's also an indication to starting bisphosphonate or a ligand inhibitor.
This is a checklist for bone health I have for every man on ADT, calcium, vitamin D, and then recommending resistance training. I'll talk about structured ways that we could recommend resistance and exercise training for our patients, alcohol and smoking cessation. The dosing distinction to remember, and this is something I often quiz the fellows about, is that osteoporosis dosing, so people who have either osteoporosis or high-risk osteopenia, dosing of bisphosphonates or denosumab is different than when they have bone mets like they in castration-resistant disease.
So you can see, for example, in denosumab, the dose is usually 60 milligrams every six months, but the dose for bone mets is usually every four weeks or three months in some studies. Same thing with zoledronic acid. So the point is that doses for fracture risk prevention are different than when they have bone mets.
And you can see some of the caveats around use of these drugs on the right-hand side. I won't go through all of these. Everyone who gets a bisphosphonate or denosumab, I usually try to get them to see their dentist beforehand, unless they have dentures and they're not planning any dental work and then I relax that requirement.
But there's just a lot of people who have, once they see their dentist, they have planned dental work and then I usually just have to delay the start of their bisphosphonate. Correct their calcium and vitamin D. I have caused hypocalcemia in a patient by giving them a bisphosphonate before because I didn't replete their vitamin D beforehand.
So I always tell my fellows, do that, and then check their renal function because denosumab is usable in renal impairment, but Zometa or another bisphosphonate is not. This is something that I haven't got burned by yet, but I've been told by the endocrinologist to watch out for. And that has to do with when someone uses.
Or actually, that's on the next slide. When someone is on Xgeva or Prolia or on denosumab, stopping denosumab is not a benign activity. Sometimes we think, "Oh, they're done with their ADT.
Let's just stop their Xgeva when they've been on it." And there's well established higher incidence of vertebral fractures when someone stops denosumab because the RANK ligand inhibition is over activated when someone stops. And so if you measure someone's alk phos when you stop denosumab, you'll actually see that it jumps up.
And so it's actually indicated that you cross taper with at least one dose of a bisphosphonate when you stop Zometa. So this doesn't happen all the time, but I do advise this for my patients or for the fellows when they're thinking about stopping denosumab. The best data for fracture.
So all of these halt the progression of bone density loss, but of course bone density loss is in a clinical event. The only agent that has fracture risk prevention is denosumab, and that comes from the Matt Smith HALT trial back in 2009 where they reduced absolute fracture risk by about two and a half percent.
So that number needed to treat translates to about 42 over three years. This hasn't really convinced me to use denosumab preferentially for my patients rather than Zometa. I'll usually base that decision on renal function, but it is something to be aware of when we're talking about using these medications.
And then actually, my PCF YIA was around fracture risk prevention screening using routinely collected CT scans. And so it should be noted that even though these aren't routinely used, there are existing algorithms that are billable and commercially available to measure bone density from routinely collected CTs.
And so this is a study that we ran showing that there's a high correlation between CT-assessed versus DEXA-assessed bone density. And so hopefully in the future we'll get to a point where we don't necessarily have to be ordering DEXAs on everyone starting ADT. We can just get them from their routine staging PET or CT scans.
Okay. So what to take back about bone health? Order the DEXA before your first ADT injection.
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Everyone should get calcium, vitamin D, and exercise. I'll talk about exercise in a second. Treat based on thresholds, not reflexively.
It's sort of interesting. I was talking to a colleague in the UK who, in the UK, they use bisphosphonates for everyone with metastatic castration-sensitive disease. And so that's actually a board question for us that we're not supposed to do that.
We're supposed to use risk-based approaches for treating with bisphosphonates for castration-sensitive disease. And so a little bit of differences in practice, I'm not sure which one is going to win out. Use the osteoporosis dosing if they have osteoporosis, not the bone met dosing, and never let denosumab lapse without a bisphosphonate bridge.
Okay. Sexual health, this is where I'm going to play a urologist for a second. So the important things to know about sexual dysfunction is that the mechanisms are completely different by what's causing their sexual dysfunction.
Sometimes we just approach sexual dysfunction like let's throw Viagra at everyone, or let's throw Cialis at everyone, but it should be realized that that's not necessarily going to work. So for radiation-induced sexual injury, for example, through arterial injury, that typically is delayed onset and really doesn't respond to a pharmacologic therapy.
ADT-induced sexual dysfunction, which is a combination of loss of libido as well as erectile dysfunction, usually is just highly correlated to when the testosterone recovers. It's difficult to manage someone's ADT-induced sexual dysfunction through just Viagra alone, although that may help some of the erectile dysfunction component.
Contrast that with post-prostatectomy mechanisms of sexual dysfunction, which have to do with, as previously mentioned, denervation and subsequent apoptosis and fibrosis of the area. And so there is a recovery window post-prostatectomy, and so when I see my post-prostatectomy patients with sexual dysfunction, I kind of think about a penile rehabilitation bundle of some sort that might consist of regular PDE5 inhibitors, but also, increasingly being aware of urology's involvement in using things like vacuum erection devices, intracavernosal injections, as well as thinking about pelvic floor training and referral to physical therapy.
And so maybe we can talk about this in the discussion, but I often find that I'm under referring to urology when someone is seeing me for post-prostatectomy sexual dysfunction. The point, I guess the board's thing to remember about post-prostatectomy dysfunction is that at least from what I've read, the data is best for regular as opposed to as-needed PDE5 dosing.
So daily dosing of Viagra as opposed to 30 minutes before sex. Now, whether the VA is going to fill a prescription for daily Viagra or not, that's a separate question, but that's where the evidence largely lies because it has to do with changing the trajectory of debilitation as opposed to just trying to promote erectile function when they want to have sex.
Okay. Other domains and survivorship care. I've run over, but I just want to allude to a couple of things that I think are exciting recently in the field.
There's a study that was presented by Alicia Morgans at this year's ASCO on the ARACOG study showing this phenomenon that we've hypothesized but haven't really shown in a randomized effect yet. This was an Alliance trial that showed that darolutamide's caused significantly less cognitive decline than enzalutamide using standard batteries.
And so I think this is why it's important to do some baseline cognitive risk assessment because we can mitigate some of the potential effects through our ARPIs. The one intervention that appears in every guideline that you'll see is exercise, and I think the one point to take away here is that every one of us tells our patient to exercise differently.
I oftentimes, before I was at the VA, was just saying, "Hey, get some exercise, or do 30 minutes of something that makes you sweat." And that's really based on nothing. And so I think the point about the VA is that we do have access to structured exercise programs. We have something called the MOVE clinic that our VAs, for older patients, we have something called the Gerofit Clinic.
There are some VAs that have structured availability of Tai Chi and other activities, and so we should be utilizing that because our veterans have access to them. I usually find that if a veteran is willing to participate, a structured exercise activity is going to be a lot more successful than me just shouting at them.
And so here's a checklist that happy to send across afterwards that you could put into a note template. I do have a survivorship note template that I commonly use nowadays, and this has to do with screening that I like to do at ADT initiation, including things like the Mini-Cog and baseline cardiovascular risk assessment at every follow-up and then at least annually.
And I think that is it. Okay, thanks. Okay.
Yeah, go ahead. Matthew Rettig: So my question actually relates to megestrol for hot flashes. And you showed us that it's associated with thromboembolic complications.
I was just wondering what you can say about the thromboembolic complications that we know can happen when we use very high-dose megestrol for cancer cachexia and appetite stimulation versus using very low dose, 20 to 40 milligrams for hot flashes. Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah, good question.
I think this is common. I didn't talk about this a lot, but this is common across some of the therapies that have mechanisms that involve increasing estrogen levels in the body. So this is the thromboembolic effects are common for things like megestrol.
They're common for estradiol supplementation. I guess what I can say is that the thromboembolic risks that we commonly quote to patients are, they come from use of much higher doses from the Women's Health study that, it caused a lot of controversy a long time ago. I think the low-dose estradiol that has been published in prospective studies does have a pretty, from what I can tell, a favorable thromboembolic risk.
The absolute risks are relatively low. Now, would I preferentially give that as opposed to a non-hormonal therapy and someone who has a history of thromboembolic events? I probably wouldn't, or someone who might have a history of atrial fibrillation, but I think it's an interesting hypothesis.
I think the last thing I'll say is the type of patients who are on Megace for appetite stimulation, they're usually, at least in my experience, a little more advanced, and I'm usually not so much thinking about their kind of minuscule thromboembolic risk when I'm thinking about using it.
Matthew Rettig: Right, right. I was just thinking more for the hot flashes, yeah. I have a question for you if I could, about bone-targeting agents, bone-protective agents for mCRPC.
So if you look at the controlled trials, you go back in time, pamidronate, which was originally approved for myeloma, failed in prostate cancer. Zoledronic acid was tested. There was a lot of pitfalls with that study, especially baseline characteristics.
But zoledronic acid nonetheless got approved. I think there was about a 10% absolute reduction in skeletal-related complications. A lot of the skeletal-related complications that were picked up were picked up on skeletal surveys that were done every three months, which we obviously don't do in clinical practice.
And then it was compared as zoledronic acid compared to denosumab and there was a 5% absolute difference. And this is an era before we had all of these newer agents, the ARPIs that improve, reduce skeletal-related complications. So I'm sort of a little bit skeptical about the indication for bone-protective agents in mCRPC, not what you were talking about with bone health.
I just wanted to get your thoughts on that. Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah, I think that's right.
The way that we define skeletal-related events more broadly I think as an indication for using bisphosphonates is a little bit wonky. I mean, we include things like palliative radiation as an event for skeletal-related events when I might give palliative radiation for something that has nothing to do with their osteoporosis.
So I think basing approvals on that is, it feels a little bit wonky, and probably at the time we were trying to do something because we didn't have a lot of great options. As to whether I have a compelling reason to avoid using bisphosphonates in someone who has mCRPC who has bone mets, I still do it.
I mean, fracture rates, pathologic fracture rates, which have a questionable effect with bisphosphonate. So pathologic fracture rates are certainly high, but fragility fracture rates start to approach around 10% to 15% at two years. And so thinking about mCRPC setting when we might have patients who actually live that long, if I think that bisphosphonates are going to be.
I think that the risk benefit probably favors the bisphosphonate in that scenario if I can reduce that fragility fracture risk. Matthew Rettig: So are you using the bone health dose once every 12- Ravi B. Parikh: No, I'll usually use the bone met dose.
Matthew Rettig: So you do every month, you're doing monthly. Ravi B. Parikh: I'll do every three month Zometa usually.
What do you do? Matthew Rettig: I personally don't, I only use bone-protective agents for bone density purposes. I occasionally have patients who come to see me who are on one of the agents that are either Zometa or denosumab every month.
So I'll continue it, but I don't generally initiate it. I think just personally the data are pretty weak and they were developed in the era before we had all these newer agents. Ravi B.
Parikh: Yeah. It's a good idea for a trial, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Have you been successful with getting the VA to approve the daily low-dose tadalafil for the penile rehab after the RALP? Ravi B. Parikh: That's a better question for the urologist.
Speaker 3: I tried and they show me. Speaker 4: Pharmacy has no issues. Every patient, we do three things.
We do all those things. Now we have Cialis, the pelvic floor therapy, and the BDD. So every patient gets that.
Speaker 3: I can't- Speaker 4: We review the comments and see who. Speaker 3: Oh. Speaker 4: Sometimes [inaudible 00:40:44].
Speaker 3: So we've been doing a sildenafil 100 and then have them quarter it. Speaker 4: Oh, no. Speaker 3: Because we couldn't.
Speaker 4: No, they approve it for every patient. Speaker 3: Nice. Speaker 4: We put post prostate.
Ravi B. Parikh: Actually, if you have trouble getting it, it's honestly easier nowadays to get your patients to take daily, Hims, Roman, all that kind of stuff. Speaker 4: GoodRx is so cheap.
Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah. GoodRx.
Yeah. Speaker 4: Very cheap at the local pharmacy. Speaker 3: And then the other one is Rugiet.
I don't know if anyone's tried that. It has the apomorphine, which is supposed to help with the libido since they don't get that with the loss of testosterone. Ravi B.
Parikh: I've never tried it. Or I've never tried it, I've also never referred it to anybody. Speaker 5: I have a friend.
Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah. I have a friend who.
I know all about this stuff. Speaker 3: And over here. You have one here.
Speaker 5: Yeah, so this is a great talk, and I really loved your talk on cardiovascular risk. But one thing that I didn't see you comment on was the risk for second-generation ARPIs. And this is one of the most common things that I have to deal with, especially for patients coming from the community who are requesting darolutamide or some medicine because they are under the assumption that that has the lowest in terms of cardiovascular risk.
And so in my review of the data and interpretation, there's a huge challenge because not all trials measured the same cardiovascular endpoints, right? Patient populations were different. Abiraterone has way more follow-up data.
So of course, compared to something like darolutamide, which is relatively recent, of course you're going to bias yourself to more cardiovascular events. And so I just wanted to bring this up to see if you have any thoughts, especially with this group here on whether or not you make any treatment decisions with ARPIs based on cardiovascular risk.
Because in my practice, I typically don't, I follow the standard pathways. Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah.
I usually will too. There was a network meta-analysis on cardiovascular risks of ARPIs that was published. I'll send it, it's in the references for my slides.
And it found the hazard ratio for, I don't know if their outcome was major adverse cardiovascular events, or if it was just chart-detected cardiovascular events had increased by about, the hazard ratio was about 1.2, but it was statistically significant. And so I think there is an additional risk.
I mean, we know that we have problems controlling hypertension sometimes and things. Actually, I think in that network meta-analysis, abiraterone, the effects were greatest. The incidence was greatest for hypertension and for hyperlipidemia.
And enzalutamide, I think, had an atrial fibrillation risk or something. So through mechanisms not known to me, these risks may be a bit distinct, but I guess all I can say is it stresses the importance of risk factor management more than anything else. I don't know, I guess if someone has severely uncontrolled hypertension, maybe it would convince me to move away from abi, but I think it's more of an argument to control their hypertension than to do a different agent.
Speaker 6: So this is just more about if you're having a hard time getting them Cialis, you get, because, oh, sorry, so some VAs will not approve it. Option one is that you can prescribe if a patient have BPH, they can be on daily Cialis. So I will put in the consult for daily Cialis for BPH.
Second is Cost Plus Drugs. I don't know if you guys are aware, but this is a pharmacy where it's going to cost the patient like $11 for 90-day supply. So they just set up an account, and you call in the prescription, it comes in the mail, very easy.
So just. Ravi B. Parikh: That's awesome.
That's great advice, yeah. Speaker 4: I have one. So now with the new GLP drugs now, there's so many other benefits.
Have you guys ever, anyone thought about if it has cardiovascular events? I mean, cardiovascular protective events, it has insulin resistance that is going to help against now new bone health benefits. So a lot of the things that these agents are causing, GLPs have the potential to help mitigate.
Ravi B. Parikh: Right. Speaker 4: So I don't know if anyone is.
Ravi B. Parikh: Well, if anyone would know, it's probably Andrea. Is there any GLP-1 research that you're aware of or PCF is interested in?
Speaker 4: Okay. Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah.
I think it's interesting. I don't prescribe it, but. Speaker 4: I try not to like them, but I'm like, "So many benefits." Ravi B.
Parikh: I know, I know. Speaker 4: And they keep on coming up with more, especially now with bones. Interesting.
Speaker 7: So there's two somewhat unorthodox, but things that have been studied for vasomotor things. So unprocessed honey, raw honey, like a tablespoon a day, they take it. And particularly some of the ethnic patients like it, the Hispanic and Black patients take it.
And then also rhythmic breathing. If you bring your breathing down to five to seven times per minute. Ravi B.
Parikh: Interesting. Speaker 7: It helps break some of the anxiety, cut through the hot flash. Ravi B.
Parikh: Is there a particular way, just for me, is there a particular way that you? Speaker 7: Yeah, it's abdominal breathing. Yeah.
There's ways to do it and even videos you can watch it, but just abdominal breathing. Ravi B. Parikh: Cool.
Speaker 7: It helps a lot of women in menopause, but you can also use the men with prostate cancer. Ravi B. Parikh: Great.
Awesome, thank you. Speaker 8: Going back to that discussion about ARPIs and cardiovascular events, there was actually an abstract at the '26 ASCO meeting retrospective cohort study looking at darolutamide with serious MACE, and it was actually significantly lower compared to abiraterone, so we'll try to distribute that abstract.
Ravi B. Parikh: Chalk one up, another win for darolutamide, there you go. Cognitive and cardiovascular.
Speaker 9: That was in the VA database. Ravi B. Parikh: Oh, really?
Speaker 9: Yeah. Ravi B. Parikh: Okay.
Speaker 10: Pro-tips. Ravi B. Parikh: Cool.
Very cool. Speaker 11: How long after a dental procedure would you typically wait before you initiate or resume an anti-resorptive agent? I find there doesn't seem to be a consensus among the dental colleagues that we have too, as far as when they're going to clear the patient.
And the second one is more of a comment than a question. On your last slide, there was a long list of survivorship things that we have to be screening patients for and such. I think for every VA that has a cancer program, a survivorship clinic is really a must because there is just not enough time in our clinical contact with patients to go through all of those things.
Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah. Great point.
To address the first, I think the risk obviously is osteonecrosis with the bisphosphonate, that risk being exacerbated proximal to dental procedures. From what I've heard from dentists, that risk is actually. The time to think about it is before the procedure.
So what I've been told is that if people are getting a bisphosphonate somewhere on the order between a month to two months prior to a procedure, and it's a major dental procedure, then usually the dentist will. They'll often push it back. As to when they can resume it post-op, that feels like it's more of a wound healing type of issue.
And I haven't heard firm guidance, but I'll usually. If it's like three-ish months afterwards and the dentist says it's okay, then I'll usually start it. I don't know if you've heard different.
Speaker 12: Oh, no, I'm- Ravi B. Parikh: Oh, a different question. Speaker 12: I didn't do it.
Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah. I think the point is that if you think that they're going to have a dental procedure in the next three months, then I would probably hold the bisphosphonate because otherwise you risk them pushing off their dental procedure.
Speaker 12: Sorry, unrelated question. My question was about relugolix. So I think for a long while we couldn't get it at our VA, Houston VA.
And then I guess within the last year something switched and we're able to get it now. I've kind of long been a little bit hesitant to use it in the VA patient. I have a clinic outside of the VA as well, but a big problem I usually see with the VA patients is compliance.
For example, just with ARPIs, I mean, half of them forget to take their abiraterone or enzalutamide or the prednisone, and there are some patients where you're not even sure they're even taking it 25% of the time, right? So the benefit of doing an injection is it goes in and it stays in, right?
So my first question is how long have you been using relugolix at the VA? And the second question is, are you seeing non-compliance as an issue? Ravi B.
Parikh: Yeah. I see non-compliance as an issue in both my VA and my non-VA patients. So with us, and this goes through our pharmacy department, but it does require a formulary request and a justification.
And our Medical Director, Wayne Harris, who's excellent, he's convinced me to be a little hesitant about using it and not buying into the hype around cardiovascular events because the absolute risk reduction with relugolix is so low. It's 3%. Now that risk difference does change if someone has had a prior MACE event before.
The risk was 15% versus 4%. And so that's real enough that I would be considered to use it. But I think the long story short is that if we...
My experience is if I push hard enough, then usually I'm able to get it done at the VA, but it's just a question of whether I want to or not. And I think other than folks with a history of a heart attack or stroke previously, I won't really push it. I don't know if people have other different ways of practicing, but that's usually my take.
Speaker 12: So you're primarily using still the injections for the most part? Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah.
At the VA, definitely. I think at my Emory practice, it's probably like 60/40, Lupron/relugolix. Speaker 13: A couple of questions for your patients that you're worried about general bone health.
What about good old-fashioned sun exposure? Do you advocate that at all? You didn't mention it.
Ravi B. Parikh: Yeah. I mean, I guess I'll recommend it to anybody.
Move down to Atlanta if you want sun exposure, but I always recommend calcium, vitamin D supplementation in all my patients with ADT. Now, what the additional benefit of sun exposure is, I think that's, I'm not sure, but I guess given the risk of bone density decline, I'll usually opt towards calcium, vitamin D, and then if they want to go out in the sun, they can.
Speaker 13: So the other question was related to patients that are on monotherapy with an ARI. Have you considered using aromatase inhibitor to reduce the estrogen conversion of the testosterone that's causing that gynecomastia? Ravi B.
Parikh: Yeah, so definitely. I've become more comfortable using tamoxifen since, well, over the past few years. The two options for managing gynecomastia are breast bud irradiation and tamoxifen or switching their agent.
And with the frequency of folks that I have on Casodex, it does become a pretty frequent conversation. I imagine it is for a lot of people. The classical teaching is that once they have breast tissue buildup, then radiation is less effective, and I'll usually push for tamoxifen then, but if it's pain without breast bud development, then radiation.
The rad oncs can comment on this, but usually I think it's an okay option. But I've increasingly used tamoxifen. Yeah.
Oh. Speaker 14: I agree. Ravi B.
Parikh: Okay. All right, let's go to dinner, I guess.Okay. All right, let's go to dinner, I guess.
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